We all know there are a ton of rivalries out there. LotR vs Butthole Potter. Coke vs Pepsi. Republican vs Democrat.

Sony vs XBox. Marvel vs DC. Street Fighter vs Mortal Kombat. Ninja vs Pirate. Union vs Scab. Facebook vs Myspace. Console vs PC.

That's not exactly what you asked for, but for some reason I just love that paper lanterns are the main light source in Morrowind. Mages Guild: 'Ten gold for instantaneous travel to any of the island's major cities? Too good to pass up.' Fighters Guild: 'Honestly? I need the money.'

The list could go on vs The list is long enough. But there's one in particular that always seems to come up in the annals of geekdom, a rivalry whose formation, in many ways, marked the beginning of Geek culture as we know it. STAR TREK vs STAR WARS You knew a thread like this had to happen sooner or later. So, which side are you on? Yodist, or Athieyodist (also known as Trekkie)? Do you Use The Force, or Live Long and Prosper?

Please note that I'm not just talking about 'which universe would win in a fight', since we all know that in the event of a full scale war between the Federation and the Empire, Battlestar Galactica would show up and eradicate the survivors. I'm talking about the whole package; which universe has the coolest stuff, which universe would you like to live in, which galaxy REIGNS SUPREME.

Feel free to explain in exhaustive detail which series you'd pick and why. Or, simply state your preference and leave it at that. Feel free to consider both primary sources and the expanded universes. No other rules, aside from standard forum protocol (i.e. No antagonizing one another or the Thought Police) (Thanks to Tourist's Marvel vs DC comment for the idea!) For my part, I'll be taking a look at nine separate categories to try and hash out which series is better. Again, this is by no means intended to set the pattern ro tone for the rest of the thread; feel free to state your case in whatever manner you deem best!

CHARACTERS You know 'em, you love 'em! Who has a better library of characters? Star Wars Nobody can deny that Star Wars is a goldmine of memorable characters.

And, of course, Yoda, the closest thing secular nerds have to a Jesus-figure. However, it's not all sunny in paradise. For every cool Han Solo, you've got a whining Luke Skywalker. For every hot Twi'lek babe, you've got two dozen Ewoks. And then there's Jar Jar. Mesa spek Star Wars witha you?

Ohhh, Jar Jar isa big doodoo for Star Wars fans! Trek While Star Wars is all over the place in terms of character quality, Trek stays remarkably consistent. You've got Kirk, Gorn-slayer, a camp icon and arguably the greatest Hack Actor of all time, and you've got Picard, a world-renowned thespian and Shakespearean actor easily on par with Branagh. Trek has Spock. That guy from Reading Rainbow.

While some Trek characters do fall flat from time to time (for the record, I LIKED Wesley Crusher) by and large it stays on target from beginning to end, especially when measured against the rocky quality of Star Wars. Advantage: Trek CUTIES A subcategory of Characters, but important enough to warrant a closer looker. While the idea of examining the aesthetic merits of the opposite sex (or same sex, if that's what you fancy) is largely subjective and bound to change depending on your inclination and preferences, it's still a matter of vital importance. Star Wars Let's face it, Princess Leia in a slave bikini is geek culture's version of Marilyn Monroe standing over an air vent. Star Wars also gave us Twi'leks, mmm, Twi'leks. Any complaints? Well, besides Leia and the Twi'leks, there's not much to go on here.

As a rule, any 'Wars hottie who shows up gets about half a minute of screentime before she's either A- killed or B- forgotten about entirely. Keira Knightley? Aayla Secura?

*sob* Check, you [&@%!]. Padme got a prominent role, yes, but she exists as little more than a vehicle to give birth to Luke and to get wangsted over by Anakin. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Leia is the ONLY consequential female role in the entire core series. The expanded universe gets a bit better in that department (Bastilla, Mira, Mission, Mara Jade) but is it too little, too late?

While I can not stress enough how drool-worthy Oola and Aaayla are for the oh-so brief amount of time we're aquainted with them, we must conclude that Star Wars is an ode to lost opportunity. Star Trek Let's be frank here: Kirk was a pimp. TOS was basically James Bond in space, with as many temp-to-hire honeys passing through in one episode as there were in the entire Star Wars saga. Plus, you had Uhura on permanent party who, besides being a landmark role in the annals of American civil rights, was F-IIIIINE.

'Brown sugaaaaar' etc. And it didn't end there; with each successive series, Trek kept up the pace. Counsellor Troi in TNG? T'Pol in ENT? SEVEN OF NINE?!

From longtime staples like Jadzia Dax to recurring guests like Ensign Ro to one-off cuties like Ashley Judd, Trek delivers. I think you can tell where this category is going, but before I wrap it up, I've got to take a moment to give special mention to Hoshi Sato.

Call me crazy, but Miss Sato looks eerily similar to one of my old drill sergeants, a half-Korean, half-Cuban American she-demon who, God help me, I had the biggest schoolboy crush on, ever. As much as I like Twi'leks, you just can't beat that. Advantage: Trek COSTUMES Pretty straightforward. Which series had the better costumes? Star Wars While a lot of the civilian attire and hairstyles make Star Wars folks (particularly on the Rebel side) look like bad 70s rejects, the Empire knows where it's. Stormtroopers, all I need to say. All of the Sith had a great sense of fashion (Vader?

Maul?), and, of course, there was the aforemention Slave Bikini. Plus, if you don't get weak in the knees whenever you see Boba Fett's armor, then your geek card should be revoked. Star Trek Identicle jumpsuits. While some of the uniforms in the Star Trek were were pretty, shall we say, flattering (Uhura and T'Pol, I'm looking at you two) and the Klingons had an undeniable eye for haute couture, most of the characters in the Star Trek world blend in with the walls, and it takes a dedicated Trekkie to tell them apart.

Worse still, what kind of universe has a standard issue death sentence uniform? Yeah, I'm talking about the Red Shirts. You'd think that a cursed uniform which invariably results in it's wearer's untimely demise would be discontinued after awhile, or at least the poor Red Shirt would change into something else before going on the Away Team. Advantage: Wars ALIENS Alien species! Star Wars Wars is stuffed to the brim with alien species, and, while most of them are roughly humanoid in form and function, few can be mistaken for humans.

Wookies, Jawas, Hutts, Sarlacs, Gungans, Tauntauns, Whomp Rats, Dugs, Exogorths, and whatever species Yoda is, no two are alike and they range from mindless primitive animals to superintelligent spacefaring civilizations. Rancors are my all time favorite monster-type alien, from any mythos, and in case you haven't noticed, I LOVE Twi'leks. In fact, the only alien species I have a real issue with is the humans.

How the hell are there fully-evolved humans living on distant planets, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away? Are they really human-humans, like us, or just some totally unrelated species that just so HAPPENS to have evolved into 1970s-era Americans by the time the story starts? Star Trek Head bumps. We might as well just end there. While Star Trek had some interesting alien cultures, they all looked too human.

They were all spacefaring civilizations with roughly the same level of technological sophistication as everyone else. They all had one or two racial characteristics that defined every last member of the species (LOGIC! Or ASSIMILATION!) Once in awhile, you got some Mary Sue deus ex machina god-creature, like Q, to show up and just totally unbalance everything. While the Borg are an undeniably interesting villain species (right up there with Daleks) and while none of the aliens present in Star Trek are unbearably bad (again, see: Ewoks, Gungans) the bland consistency of Star Trek just isn't enough to save it in this instance.

Advantage: Wars LANGUAGES Both series seemed big on inventing languages for their species, the question is, which one did it better? Star Wars You've got Jawas twittering like meth addicts, robots beeping at each other, bat aliens squeeking, and Gungans gibbering on in some sort of infantile, slightly racist babytalk.

Wookie-speak is absolutely iconic (although sometimes you have to wonder how Han understood Chewie without the aid of subtitles) and who can forget Jabba's singer crooning in authentic Huttese? Star Trek With that rich linguistic tapestry, Star Wars is a tough act to follow, huh? Well, 'nuff said. Advantage: Trek GAMES We're all gamers here, so I don't need to explain why video games are vitally important to a series. Star Wars KotoR.

Rogue Squadron. Lego Star Wars. Force Unleashed. Did I mention KotoR, because that one's kinda important. In short, Star Wars has great games, and good games, and at it's best, the gaming alternatives may even be BETTER than the film source material.

Like, say, KotoR. Star Trek Ummm, there was a Star Trek game on DOS, wasn't there?

And I think I saw some nifty Trek inspired ship mods for X3. Advantage: Wars TECHNOLOGY Who has the best gadgets and toys?

I'll exclude large-scale tech objects, like starships and other vehicles, from this category. Star Wars Lightsabers. And, oh yeah, LIGHTSABERS.

What more do you need?!? Well, in Star Wars' case, hopefully not much, since there really aren't that many fancy new inventions to pick from. There are, ummm. Moisture farming pods? Star Trek The Transporter can beam you nearly anywhere you'd like to go. The Replicator can make you any food or drink you fancy in an instant.

And the Holodeck, oh my God, the Holodeck is the Holy Grail of nerds everywhere. Imagine programming it to let you play Oblivion!

There are some inventions that fall flat and seem almost dated nowadays (the Communicator isn't as nifty as an I-Phone and has nowhere near as many aps, but at least it gets good reception) but still, there's no denying that the series is chock full o' Trekkie techy toys. The lack of lightsabers IS a serious blow, I grant you, and I'm almost tempted to give this one to Star Wars simply because lightsabers are so damn cool. But then you have to remember: the Holodeck ccan create a lightsaber for you.

Of any color and type. And let you use it to slay a Krayt dragon. And you wouldn't have to spend years learning how to use it either.

Advantage: Trek VEHICLES From starships to bicycles. Star Wars Dear God. Whether it's a twenty-mile long starship with an engine putting out the power of a white dwarf star or a sexy little TIE fighter zipping through the void, Star Wars DELIVERS. It's like Top Gear for outer space.

The Millennium Falcon, Slave I, the X-Wing, THE DEATH STAR. And it's not all spaceships, either; Wars is stuffed with landspeeders, hover bikes, AT-ATs, and pod racers. It can all get a bit much at times, but there's no denying Star Wars has some pimpin' rides. Star Trek Trek's spaceships are a lot more subdued. In a sense, this may be better, as they're more sensible and, from a stricly scientific persepctive, more believable than the over-the-top Star Wars designs. There's no doubt that the spaceships in Star Trek occupy a far more central place in their universe than the starships in Star Wars do- after all, the bulk of each series takes place onboard one version of the USS Enterprise or another. The Enterprise isn't just a starship, it's not just a model floating in space or a CG blip that flashes across your screen during the climactic Battle Scene; it's a castmember.

It's a friend. It's a living, breathing, vibrant community, that we see and explore and let into our home.

What Trek lacks in style and flash, it tries to make up for in nuance and substance. But, when you could fit a dozen Romulan Bird of Prey's into the aft engine compartment of a single Imperial Star Destroyer, no amount of personality is going to even up the fight. Advantage: Wars POLITICS/ PHILOSOPHY I know, I know, discussing Politics is frowned upon by the Thought Police, but we're talking fictional politics here.

Reading between the lines, what kind of messages do these sci-fi worlds send, and would you want to live in either of them? Star Wars Star Wars is all about dualism: good vs evil, light vs dark, nice vs naughty, and nowhere in the Galaxy is that typified more than in the eternal sturggle between the Jedi and their Sith counterparts. Now, on the surface, we're 'supposed' to identify with the Jedi.

They're the 'good' guys. The Sith are 'bad', the guys who, in true pantomime fashion, we are meant to hiss and boo at whenever they show their sinister faces. Now, I'm not going to get too into this, mostly for time constraints. The issue of whether the Jedi are really as 'good' and the Sith as 'evil' as Lucas would like us to believe is a complex one, and could easily warrant an entire topic in and of itself. I've nearly been banned from Star Wars forums before because of this issue (god, that sounds nerdy), so long story short, what The Man tells us is wrong.

Despite all the pretty rhetoric and sophistry they hide behind, the Jedi are inherently oppressive and authoritarian in nature. The Jedi Code is the instrument by which the Council preserves it's own power at the expense of everyone else and both legitimizes and perpetuates it's absolute control over the many by the undeserving few; it is the working manifestation of the unchallengeable, religious-esoteric Paternalist State. The Sith, while not always pretty, are far more in tune with the natural order of the universe. Individual rights, personal liberty, and most of all, genuine progress through the voluntary betterment of self and society, are all far better able to flourish under Sith rule than Jedi. In many ways, then, Star Wars can be seen, not as a tale of growing liberation and freedom, but as an ode to a society in love with fascism and unable to break free of it's cycle. While I don't think anyone would argue that the Empire being destroyed was a 'bad' thing, the Empire grew not out of Sith ideals, but out of Jedi ideals being subverted (or perhaps used as intended) by an ambitious individual outside the self-appointed circle of privileged elites. And while we're encouraged to believe that plucky Jedi perseverance defeated the Empire in the end, it was not the Jedi nor any of their ideals that won the day, but the Sith impulse towards competition and the Rule of Two that brought an end to the Empire just as it was about to claim final victory.

With the Jedi and their paternalist-authoritarian mindset left alive to rebuild, and the inherent trajectory of oppression found whenever moralistic revolutions succeed, we've got to wonder if a post-Imperial Star Wars universe is really one we'd like to see? Mark my words, the brutal Ewok reprisals against Imperial POWs as seen in the final party sequences are just the beginning of a Jedi-Republican Reign of Terror the likes of which the Galaxy has never seen. Star Trek On the surface, Star Trek's Federation is a sort of Platonic eudaimonic society, a post-scarcity utopia where the Western dream of unbridled freedom and inalienable rights shines it's warm, glowing light across the stars. But watch an episode or two of TNG, and that reading quickly starts to fall apart.

Again, this is a complicated, nuanced issue that could easily take up an entire topic in itself, and which in many ways runs far deeper (and is far more troubling) than the simple Jedi-paternalist vs Sith-libertarian conflict we see in Star Wars. I'll give you guys a couple links to mull over: (with a really interesting bit comparing and contrasting Star Trek's fascist underpinnings to Joss Whedon's Firefly- who would have thought Whedon would be a welcome change?),, following a similar theme. I think it's safe to say that the world of Star Trek (at least as introduced in TNG), despite all the cool gadgets and lofty speech, is little more than a thinly veiled fascist dystopia. And, while Star Wars at least acknowledges the possibility of The Other and gives us room to choose a different way, the Federation will tolerate no other gods before it. Now, if you'll you'll excuse me, I've got an appointment with a Betazoid Kommissar to determine if I'm harboring seditious thoughts. Advantage: Wars THE FINAL VERDICT STAR WARS wins!

Sorry, Hoshi. In all honesty, Star Wars is hands down my favorite one of the two and, even if the final score had favored Trek, I would have given the prize to Wars anyway. That said, if I had to pick one universe to live in? Star Trek, no doubt. Because of the Holodeck.

If I got bored with the sanctimonious bleating, rubbery headbumps, and dull uniforms of my Trekkie comrades, I could just fire up the Holodeck and kill time in a fully-simulated Star Wars world of my own making. But Doros, you forgot one thing: Story Believability. Not the scientific accuracy, the believability of what happens.

In the end of the third (aka 6th) movie, what happens to the Empire? Sure, the Emperor and his capital were destroyed, but that's not how empires work! The remaining generals who werent on the Death Star would have brought the empire (Or at least parts of it) back! After Alexander the Great died, there were still huge kingdoms around (roughly, Greece, Asia, Africa).

His empire was still kind of there. I give this to Trek. They're tied 5-5. I would say that I don't prefer either of them, so that would be my verdict anyway.

With that being said, Galactica would kick both their arses. _________________ I'm copying nyk! Xbox gamertag: ch00_bakka Ps3 whosywhatsit: ditto. The Boring Black of the colored posts movement The Herr Doktor Pepper of the Beverage Club. I always found Star Trek to be a bit ridiculous. Particularly their 'scientific' talk where they seem to spew out as much [&@%!] as possible. Not that I care watching some science fiction with scientific accuracy, but at least, please, don't try to overdo the explain thing and use the worst combinations of stuff any science newbie can guess it's very wrong.

At least Star Wars know they're doing basically a fantasy movie in space - and a pretty decent one at that - so they don't bother you with any ridiculous and cringe-inducing claims. You know, there's hard sci-fi where they try to explain things as credible as possible considering it's sci-fi - so there's always the disbelief thing, although easily acceptable since there's nothing you can outright refuse. In Star Trek's case, it's more like amateur sci-fi. Really, fire in space!

And same for the characters, far more likeable in Star Wars, interesting fantasy characters, while with Star Trek, they again have the disadvantage of being more on the amateur side of sci-fi, so everything feels more campy. I don't know, I can't seem to take Star Trek seriously, feels way too campy and not serious for me. Maybe I should check some again, maybe I'll actually find this funny/pretty entertaining and not judge it too harshly. I'm not the always all serious guy, but I was never really struck by Star Trek. .And the Holodeck, oh my God, the Holodeck is the Holy Grail of nerds everywhere.

Imagine programming it to let you play Oblivion! In the Star Trek universe, people would use the holodeck to pretend they were in the Star Wars universe. In the Star Wars universe, folks would read Star Trek novels to their little kids in order to put them to sleep. _________________ Baurus: Our job is to get the Emperor out of situations like this.

Though I'll admit, things aren't going exactly to plan. Casandra: At this moment the deadliest weapon at my disposal is a goblin's head on a stick. I'd be worried if this was the plan. But Doros, you forgot one thing: Story Believability. Not the scientific accuracy, the believability of what happens. In the end of the third (aka 6th) movie, what happens to the Empire? Sure, the Emperor and his capital were destroyed, but that's not how empires work!

The remaining generals who werent on the Death Star would have brought the empire (Or at least parts of it) back! After Alexander the Great died, there were still huge kingdoms around (roughly, Greece, Asia, Africa). His empire was still kind of there.

I give this to Trek. They're tied 5-5.

I would say that I don't prefer either of them, so that would be my verdict anyway. With that being said, Galactica would kick both their arses. The Empire is still there. It is continued as the imperial remnant in the expanded universe books.

Palpatine is even cloned. Authors continued star wars long after the movies ended. Some great books too. _________________ The Great Water Guardian of the UESP poke-squad The Proud Falco of the UESP VGCC. Come on, from the off this isn't even a fair contest!

I judge characters in these two 'verses on their zeitgeist-y impact. Trek's legacy is!

Just fire up the dulcet tones of Vader's breathing, and BAM! - you're there in the Star Wars universe. Trek's were cerebral, nuanced, bona fide characters, which gave it all the zeitgeist-y impact of a soap opera. The Captain's stand out (particularly Ben Sisko) like the make-up departments bumpy foreheads, but beyond that? Unless you're sitting down and watching reruns, immersed in a post-Roddenberry universe, the support cast just drifts away.

Solo and co are eternal edifices of iconoclasm. 'Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

What is this, the 1940's?! Aside from that: remember that Friends episode where Jennifer Aniston dressed up in a gold bikini? Well, that scene was lost on me. I watched Star Wars as a kid, before the whole 'girls' thing happened. So to me, Star Wars is entirely devoid of allure until that CGI cat-thing takes a swipe at Nat Portman's midriff (and even then, meh). Resistance to Seven of Nine, however, was wholly futile. See also: T'Pau-- sorry,, and my personal Trek fave, Jadzia Dax.

The Enterprise beats the Falcon, and does it in 11 parsecs. Again, this is not a fair fight. Join Farmboy Luke and Ben in A New Hope's cantina, and you've got just the right mix of wacky, 1970's era 'I bet this is what aliens done look like!'

-designs alongside menacingly believable critters, most of which are probably duplicitous bounty hunters. To get a little serious for a second.: Trek largely compartmentalised races with psychological proclivities, breaking them up and doling them out to the Angry Masculine Klingons, the Rational Vulcans, or, more uncomfortably, the Greedy Money-Lending Ferengi. Each race simply represented something, which I thought was rather unimaginative. Mos Eisley's scum and villainy FTW! Okay, some guys name:.

A Klingon language?! Bah, that's right down there with Tolkien's elitist, anally retentive overthinking of Middle Earths 'Stuff That Doesn't Matter' (language, runes, maps, who begat which Dwarf. Ben Burrtt didn't go for Trek and Tolkien's creative cul de sac. Instead, he crafted a world through sounds and texture. Install Logitech Wireless Keyboard K400r Setup. Wonder and mystery were Burrtt's sonic palette. From Jabba, Bib Fortuna, Wall-E's--- sorry, R2's expressive bleeps and whistles, to Greedo's iconic pre-death cockiness. In Star Wars, sound itself was a language.

'Koona t'chuta, Solo?' Does the Ebon Hawk count? 'Cause I still love that more than the Normandy SR2. The Falcon, X-Wings, B-Wings, Y-Wings, V-Wings, TIE's, TIE Bombers, AT-AT's, Aratech 74-Z Military speederbike, Tatooine's skiffs - the list really is endless.

If begins, however, with the Corellian Engineering Corvette, better known as the Rebel Blockade Runner. Sci-fi found form and purpose when that baby drifted into shot. Trek has no equal. Kuat Systems Engineering Firespray-Class Patrol & Attack Ship - aka Slave I - FTW!! RELIGION AND POLITICS - yay!

Aka, TNG's meta-fascism vs SW's neo-taoist dualism. I'd agree with some of your observations, Doros, re the less than altruistic mechanics of the Jedi Order and, at its height, the councils notions of authority. Whilst these topics are too nerdishly complex and multi-faceted for this thread or forum, I'd say drawing conclusions on Trek's reflected ideologies is a safer bet. With SW you have the original trilogy, which at its core, through Yoda, put forth a simplified version of taoism. Lucas ripped it right off, yet (quite masterfully) made any didactic edges blurry enough to not be too associative. Ace Of Base Greatest Hits Rar.

He was creating mythology, not a manifesto. However, beyond the Originals and into the extended 'verse, new perspectives began to be found. KOTOR 1 largely painted the Force as an almost biblically tempting entity, a test, almost; that in those sensitive to the Force, there exists a precarious balance between individual will separate from morality (the Sith, who in that context are quite Nietzschean), and an aspiringly selfless path that begins to insist on self-negation (the Light Side). KOTOR 1 & 2 combine to cast the Jedi into a decidedly superheroic light; a struggle with self-actualisation and responsibility of power, always one step away from falling off the great wagon of Morality.

This way, notions of the Force focus on individuation, as opposed to the mechanics of potentially authoritarian Orders. Revenge of the Sith could be said to support KOTOR's musings, but reading anything into Nu-Wars is an exercise in futility. More overt, however, is the brooding scene where Anakin confides to Yoda about his dreams and fears. If Wars was irrevocably entangled with eastern mysticism and philosophy, Trek was proudly waving an American flag beside one bearing the hammer and sickle; it was born of the Cold War, and each of its Captains found themselves allegorically linked to a real-world conflict, or a less cogent sense of socio-political unease. As an admirer of taoism, there's only one winner: 'Death is a natural part of life.

Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.' The Final Verdict Lucas beats Roddenberry, 7-2! SW will always be the numero uno sci-fi franchise for me - there's nothing bigger, or more bold.

However, though I could live the rest of my life never seeing another episode of the original Trek, DS9 utterly and completely rocked, and Voyager, Enterprise, and TNG all had their moments (most involving Q). If Cactus can stay awake long enough ( ), I'm sure he'll throw his two, er, space credits worth in (unswervingly on the Roddenberry side of the fence). _________________ [ data pending ]. I never liked these, I've learned that those that love Star Wars really LOVE it to a dire fault.

It doesn't matter what you argue, the 'tech' in the stories gets more outrageous everytime I turn around. One I think about is how this weapon could make suns go supernova.But it's not that that is dumb, it's that the person said they could determine when it'll blow up.I get it, Star wars is advanced, but so is Star Trek.I love both Star Trek and Star wars.But I will admit to slightly favoring Star Trek simply cause I can believe it, and is presented in a theoretical logic. Granted, most of the talk is mumbo-jumbo, but it tries. I don't even remember from the Star Wars books I read, if anything was explained.

Both have great things going for them. But I think it comes down to who prefers believability and logic, and who prefers outlandish and flashy. While I like all those traits.I've been able to enjoy a Star Trek episode and walk away from it thinking. But that's just me.

I'm not feeling very good at the time of this posting, if it's not articulate, I apologize I'll fix it later. I grew up watching Star Trek TNG. I remember sitting as a child with my parents and bro, gathered around the tube watching the latest episode. When I watch it nowadays, it's difficult to actually enjoy. It's kind of like, I want to enjoy it because it reminds me of my childhood. I do like the futuristic science aspect of it, I really do enjoy that. If you watch it though, it doesn't come up often.

'The plasma coils overheated.' Stuff like that, doesn't happen all that often. The entire series is very soap opera-y.

Yes, Councilor Troi is so, so sexy. That's my girl. It's just so 'sissyfied.' If you go to the bar on the enterprise, they'll give you a 'Terriliian Soda.' Or maybe 'DeLorean Sweet Tea.'

Ya know what? I want a Pabst and a shot of whiskey. You don't have that, do you?

I grew up watching Star Wars as well. When I watch it nowadays, I don't have to defend my tastes to my mental critic. I say to myself, 'THATS why this movie series is so awesome.' It's a futuristic version of real life. 'Is that.legal?'

'I will make it legal.' I am sure that has been said regarding the invasion of certain countries.

And then you have just so many badass characters: Han Solo,, Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Jabba The Hutt, IG-88 (he hangs out with the Terminator), The Emperor, Yoda, and of course, the baddes of them all, Darth mother effing Maul. Darth Maul is someone your mother tells you not to hang out with.

He takes drugs and listens to Tupac Hit em up while he does knuckle pushups. One of his favorite things to do is go to the bar and pick fights with drunk frat boys. You have to be careful in the Star Wars world. You run your mouth, and you are liable to be frozen in carbonite and hung up like a poster. Going to the bar, you'll see a man get his arm chopped off, and another dude get blasted in the chest.

I could go on and on and on. As I said, I'm not feeling well. The Empire is still there.

It is continued as the imperial remnant in the expanded universe books. Palpatine is even cloned. Authors continued star wars long after the movies ended. Some great books too. Expanded universe? The expanded universe (other than KotOR) never factors into my opinion of anything.

_________________ I'm copying nyk! Xbox gamertag: ch00_bakka Ps3 whosywhatsit: ditto. The Boring Black of the colored posts movement The Herr Doktor Pepper of the Beverage Club. I base how much expanded universe counts according to what the creator says. Lucas says the books and comics are all cannon and really happen.

In fact, much of the stuff in the New trilogy is based on books. The planet that's a huge city - from the books. I don't care to read them all because I'm frankly not that interested in Star Wars beyond the movies, however I did read a comic book where Luke finally broke down and bowed down to the reincarnation of the Emperor (his soul had moved into a clone) and joined the Dark Side. I was disappointed, however, that he changed his mind 10 minutes later.

Luke Skywalker - eternal wuss. Luke's the classic ingenue archetype, and for various narrative purposes, he's the character the audience most identifies with. Ben leads Luke - and so us - towards Mos Eisley and the adventure beyond. In '77, the effect would've been more noticeable, considering Star Wars's visionary design and effects (i.e. Its alien world would've appeared far more alien). Luke's always sympathetic, though, and through him we can empathise with the various points of conflict throughout the trilogy. In that context, his weaknesses - such as his reaction to Vader, re his sister, in Jedi's final showdown - are essential.

Besides, from Gilgamesh, to Luke, to Buffy, the hero or heroine whines about their allotted fate. _________________ [ data pending ]. But the biggest problem I have with star wars is the second trilogy (episodes 1-3). Anakin killed the younglings. Darth Vader wouldn't have done that. The Dark Side isn't about evil, it's about POWER. And turning the younglings to the Dark Side would have given Anakin more power than killing them.

It's what Vader would have done. Anakin is evil. Vader just wants power. It's too black and white in the newer movies. Episodes 4-6 are about power. Freedom vs oppression. In the newer movies it got turned into capital G Good vs capital E Evil.

Good and Evil didn't really exist in the older movies. The Emperor was a jerk, sure, but he wasn't evil for the sake of evil.

He just wanted power. _________________ I'm copying nyk! Xbox gamertag: ch00_bakka Ps3 whosywhatsit: ditto. The Boring Black of the colored posts movement The Herr Doktor Pepper of the Beverage Club. Episodes 4-6 are about power. Freedom vs oppression. In the newer movies it got turned into capital G Good vs capital E Evil.

Good and Evil didn't really exist in the older movies. The Emperor was a jerk, sure, but he wasn't evil for the sake of evil. He just wanted power.Without going through key events in all six films, and then setting them against your observations, I'd have to say: I disagree. I don't think the originals were about freedom vs power at all, and I don't think the latter trilogy are about---- well, anything really! They have moments of lucidity, often contradicting each other across films or even within. The scene I mentioned with Yoda and Anakin in Ep.III is definitely consistent with what Yoda tells Luke in Dagobah.

The originals were essentially mythic, as Lucas intended. Clearly by the '90's his brain had fallen out of his earhole, and mythology gave way to vapidly specific exposition. Those new films have even been seen as allegory for American democratic republicanism vs external (i.e. Foreign) forces, though whether Lucas intended such allusions shall probably always remain a mystery. If anything, Ep.III goes a little bit Nietzschean, like KOTOR II; imposition of a [somehow naturally] superior people, over an inferior, indistinct collective - where the relative suffering of said elite is all that matters, over and above the masses woes and circumstance. Palpatine relaying the tale of Darth Plagus to a wavering Anakin, could easily be seen as tacit promotion of Nietzsche's ideas of individual Will, which is inherently removed from all notions of morality. This goes against the idea that the new trilogy boldly promoted Good vs Evil.

In that scene, the Senator is not Evil by any means (ditto when Anakin confronts Palpatine, who ultimately reveals his Dark Side training). A spanner in the works is this; is Palpatine simply using the notion of 'extramorality' to lure Anakin? Or, are those very notions of defined Will the means and ends of his machinations? Man, I love being a Star Wars nerd. I never liked these, I've learned that those that love Star Wars really LOVE it to a dire faultThat could be seen as proof of the franchises ability and power to inspire its audience.

There's like, then there's love - and the latter could be distinguished by its irrationality. As to 'these'?

Doros intended a fervently nerdy exploration of two rather fine franchises. Nothing's been said against either, really. As to your comment re 'believability and logic'? There's not a lot of logic or believability going on in Homer or Virgil, but those stories have endured for centuries, and will never die.

So wonder, awe, and the fantastical will always inspire. [ edited, 'cause i scored 1 out of 3 on my 'spell Palpatine' test ] _________________ [ data pending ] Last edited by on Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total. Episodes 4-6 are about power. Freedom vs oppression.

In the newer movies it got turned into capital G Good vs capital E Evil. Good and Evil didn't really exist in the older movies. The Emperor was a jerk, sure, but he wasn't evil for the sake of evil.

He just wanted power.Without going through key events in all six films, and then setting them against your observations, I'd have to say: I disagree. I don't think the originals were about freedom vs power at all, and I don't think the latter trilogy are about---- well, anything really! They have moments of lucidity, often contradicting each other across films or even within. The scene I mentioned with Yoda and Anakin in Ep.III is definitely consistent with what Yoda tells Luke in Dagobah.

The originals were essentially mythic, as Lucas intended. Clearly by the '90's his brain had fallen out of his earhole, and mythology gave way to vapidly specific exposition. Those new films have even been seen as allegory for American democratic republicanism vs external (i.e.

Foreign) forces, though whether Lucas intended such allusions shall probably always remain a mystery. If anything, Ep.III goes a little bit Nietzschean, like KOTOR II; imposition of a [somehow naturally] superior people, over an inferior, indistinct collective - where the relative suffering of said elite is all that matters, over and above the masses woes and circumstance.

Palpatin relaying the tale of Darth Plagus to a wavering Anakin, could easily be seen as tacit promotion of Nietzsche's ideas of individual Will, which is inherently removed from all notions of morality. This goes against the idea that the new trilogy boldly promoted Good vs Evil. In that scene, the Senator is not Evil by any means (ditto when Anakin confronts Palpatine, who ultimately reveals his Dark Side training). A spanner in the works is this; is Palpatin simply using the notion of 'extramorality' to lure Anakin? Or, are those very notions of defined Will the means and ends of his machinations?

Man, I love being a Star Wars nerd. I never liked these, I've learned that those that love Star Wars really LOVE it to a dire faultThat could be seen as proof of the franchises ability and power to inspire its audience.

There's like, then there's love - and the latter could be distinguished by its irrationality. As to 'these'? Doros intended a fervently nerdy exploration of two rather fine franchises. Nothing's been said against either, really. As to your comment re 'believability and logic'? There's not a lot of logic or believability going on in Homer or Virgil, but those stories have endured for centuries, and will never die.

So wonder, awe, and the fantastical will always inspire. ------------------- No bigger Star Wars nerd on here than me.and as such I feel I must tell you to SPELL PALPATINE RIGHT!

_________________ The Great Water Guardian of the UESP poke-squad The Proud Falco of the UESP VGCC Last edited by on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total. One more thing.

It is spelled Darth Plagueis Darth Plagueis is even less relevant than Palpatine! The Tourist refuses to edit based upon a Darth he'd never heard of before Episode III!

Arch-Mage: you're braver than I. Thinking about George Lucas just hurts my head.

Such as: The Phantom Menace, the Greedo Scene, why is the clone army Kiwi?, Jar-Jar Binks, and so on and so forth! If Lucas' cinematic bio ran from THX/Graffiti to the original trilogy, he'd be a bona fide nerd god. As it is, he's now just an ego on the run. Note: don't say that in the project. Also, this thread is wandering off-topic. I can't do Trekkers (or Trekkies? I never remember) justice, as only the first season of DS9 sits on my shelf.

Being a fan of Trek is certainly a costlier endeavor. _________________ [ data pending ].